Hey! My name is Atvelonis, and I'm the Fandom Wiki Manager for the Alice Wiki as well as an admin on Elder Scrolls. I'm here to help you and the wider community, and act as a liaison between you and Fandom Staff. If you ever have any questions or issues related to the wiki, its features (editing, templates, bots, etc.), or whatever else, feel free to reach out to me on my message wall or on Discord (Atvelonis#9495) and I can help out! —Atvelonis (wall • contribs) 16:33, May 6, 2019 (UTC)
Hi! We don’t usually edit on other wiki versions since we are not native speakers nor haven’t learned the language (Google Translate can only help so far) unless the founder/bureaucrats themselves has asked for help (e.g. me having sysop rights over at the Polish Alice Wiki). The only usual thing I do is add interwiki links on the pages when available.
If you want to adopt the French Alice Wiki, go right ahead! Make sure you follow the needed guidelines :)
I have the Cheshire cat that I got from tower records it's an exclusive from them and it limited addition number 355 of 1000. I really wanted to go an Alice fan rather than somebody that's just going to try to resell it. (Of course I'm not giving him away but I've loved him for like 15 years so...)
Heads up, Imma run cosmetic changes with my bot and so far from the wikis I've stalked on, the all lower case works fine when linking articles sooo if you ever notice red links, wall me. But I think they fixed it so it shouldn't happen, I guess? Thanks
Continuing here because that discussion was clogging up Lia's emails. Oops!
"I just think collecting every possibility, uncertainty or theory on a wiki and putting them on a single article sounds like unnecessarily difficult work."
Once I've finished my work placement, which is really eating up my time, I'm going to be going through EVERY article on the wikia to fix grammatical mistakes, improper punctuation usage and unclear wording. Collecting and rewriting the theories from the trivia sections isn't difficult since i'm going through all the articles anyway, and there are nowhere near as many as there could be on a wikia this size. You shouldn't worry about the difficulty; I can undertake this myself and get it finished in about two months from the time my placement finishes!
"I still want them also on Trivia sections, although I would like those to be more detailed and clarified too."
Keeping them in the trivia sections makes the theory article redundant. In my opinion, they'd be better suited to either just being in the article or just being in the trivia sections. Of course you know that I'd prefer them to just be in the article, but I understand that you'd prefer them in the trivia sections.
If we're at a stalemate, then would it be okay to make a Queensland discussion about this to get other people's opinions? (Lia brought it up and I wasn't aware of this until now...oops.) If others prefer to keep them in the trivia sections over moving them to a separate fan theory article then I'll replace the current theory trivia with the rewritten clarified ones from the mock article in my userpage.
Also, this is unrelated, but how would one go about referencing a video interview? I ask because Minx on Youtube is doing an interview with American McGee on her Twitch about Alice and his new project; if there's any new information about development/his opinions then that would be suitable for the wikia, right? But i'm not sure how to source it.
Having theories in Trivia sections *is completely normal*. Look around Wikia's Trivia sections and you'll find tons of them. Redundancy is not necessarily always a bad thing. The reason why the theories deserve a mention on the actual article on the subject in question (for example, a theory on Pris belongs on Pris' article) is because it's relevant, and readers won't discover the theory unless they're deliberately searching for the "Theories and Speculation" article, which there is not a single link to on the wiki. The idea that we must go through every Trivia section, search for theories (literally, anything with "it's possible that" could qualify as a theory), and then move them over to the "Theories and Speculation" article (just because you think anything resembling "It's possible that" doesn't belong on an article or Trivia section), is just unnecessary and asinine. >_<
If you truly understand, then please reconsider and don't continue this line of thought.
I dislike "discussions" because they always tend to become a circlejerk.
As for the American McGee interview, you can wait and see if there's anything worth putting on the wiki first. Then we can go about sourcing it.
"I dislike "discussions" because they always tend to become a circlejerk."
I don't understand what you mean by this. Asking for Lia's opinion and others would become a "circlejerk"? What?
I'll relent and back off then. I'll copy-paste the rewritten trivia and delete the article. I have no motivation to rewrite any of the other (sometimes poorly written) theories, though. I'll just be checking grammar and the like.
As for the discussion, I've seen a lot of occurrences where trolls, or friends of friends, all come in at once and cause havoc, vote with bias, etc. It also tends to create long debates, which I'm not in the mood for.
I'm not sure why you made two "Theories and Speculation" articles. Should I delete the one on your userpage then?
I didn't make two articles. I think Lia moved it over to my userspace page and forgot to delete the other one. You can delete both. They're not neccesary and I have the rewritten trivia saved on my computer!
Ah. Rest assured, I don't have any friends on the wikia (or indeed in real life, hah). I wasn't attempting to do anything like that.
Sorry for not being considerate of your opinions and getting things off to a bad start.
Oh sorry, I just copied it over from a wiki. It's their default setting so I didn't touch it. But anyone with an access to the JS can change it. Feel free to suggest a suitable number of days over at Board:Queensland :) After a week, if there is a vote for and no other vote against, the new setting will be applied.
Where did you get the numbers for their height? Was it stated in the forum? Or AMR's artbook? Any official source at all? Stating Carpenter is almost twice Alice's height already suffices because it's obvious at how he towers over her. When you add numbers, it's questionable. How did you reach that kind of measurement? If it was from the height of the person Carpenter is based from (aka Bruno Carpentieri if he's even a real person), that can be included. But if you just measured from your screen size, and given that the screen size can extend, that should be gone.
The basic measurement of height doesn't include hair.
Alice is a full grown woman. The average height of a woman is 5 feet 4 inches. Double that. I also posited what it'd be if Alice was very, very short (5 feet) and taller (5 ft 5). But Alice is definitely not a tall woman, especially if you compare her height to the people in London.
The point I'm bringing up is that the height numbers are not from any official source and are just based on your approximates, which you've been changing. And that just means we don't know for sure if he's even within the 9-11 feet. Lol. Now it's 9-10, apparently.
"He's definitely in the 9-10 feet range. That much is fact."
Uhm. From where? The Londoners in the game weren't even stated to have an actual height. So we also don't know Alice's height, and Carpenter's 9-10 is just on your end and not from an official source. You also didn't answer if it's from an official source, the forum doesn't seem to show results for her height nor the reddit page of American's ask page event thing with the fans.
My source is natural human biology. The Londoners are human. Alice is human. I mean, you're acting as if Alice is 4 feet tall or 6 feet tall which definitely isn't true and is completely impossible. Alice is definitely in the 5 feet to 5.5 range. In Madness Returns, she's a fully grown 19 year old woman.
It's not from an official source, but it's from legit reasoning. It's factual he's in the 9-10 foot range.
I mean, you're acting as if Alice is 4 feet tall or 6 feet tall which definitely isn't true and is completely impossible.
As I said in reply #3 in this thread, "The point I'm bringing up is that the height numbers are not from any official source". I'm not saying Alice "is 4 feet tall or 6 feet tall" nor have I even implied it. What I'm saying is that having a specific range for her height is subjective because we don't have an official source for it. You argued natural human biology, but again, there's a possibility she and the Carpenter could be out of whatever range you specify (example: she might suddenly be 5'6" or anything not greater than like 5'7" or something) because it's not from an official source. Yes, they are human and we could measure it all we like but again, it's not an official source. And she's 20, there's a possibility she could grow a few more inches because it's dependent on how she's drawn/modeled, your basis is AMR but as of now her looks in AO differs from that. So I still disagree with putting number in any of the characters' height.
Women stop growing height wise when they're around 14-15 years old. By 19-20, Alice has definitely stopped growing.
Even if she is 5 foot 6, if you double that, it becomes EXACTLY 11 feet (there are 12 inches in a foot). In that pic, Carpenter is almost a foot under Alice's height (doubled), meaning he's around 10 feet if Alice is 5 foot 6.
If Alice is 4 foot 10 (which she isn't, she's taller than that) (147cm), then her height doubled is 294cm, or 9.6 feet. And Carpenter is clearly a little less than that, but not enough to make him below 9 feet.
It's not like it's stating he's 9-10 feet as fact, just that it's an approximate, which is a true and factual approximate. And this approximate is in an official source: Madness Returns.
"Women stop growing height wise when they're around 14-15 years old. By 19-20, Alice has definitely stopped growing."
Her height is unknown. As do any of the other characters. What is obvious in AMR is that Carpenter is almost twice Alice's height and Carpenter is a giant given at how he towers over her. That is it. Her and Carpenter's exact height? We don't know. The information you're including is from, and only from, your assumption. We don't even know if she'll stop growing, imo. Since she was modeled and rendered in AMR, and even in AO. You can't say that she'll stop growing, are you part of Spicy Horse? Did American say that? You can't solely rely on human biology, even more so when these are rendered in a way to suit the environment of the game. You can't solely reason out "The Londoners are human. Alice is human" because for all we know they toned down her height from the original concept in AMR. It's also obvious her stature in AO is vastly different, you can't turn a blind eye to her most recent appearance/s. We don't know how tall she got by then. We can't give a range since her appearance changes, and also because it's up to the artists on how she and the other characters are modeled.
"Even if she is 5 foot 6, if you double that, it becomes EXACTLY 11 feet (there are 12 inches in a foot). In that pic, Carpenter is almost a foot under Alice's height (doubled), meaning he's around 10 feet if Alice is 5 foot 6."
What I'm pushing, again, as a point here is: a SPECIFIC number range is what makes it subjective. There is NO height specified in AMR and in AO, count AMA in the mix too. The range is from what you measured, on your screen. And the fact stands that screen sizes can vary. Approximates can be in the trivia but including it as part of canon info violates the very reason why it's called "canon" info in the first place. ...And I'm just repeating myself again.
"And this approximate is in an official source: Madness Returns."
"The information you're including is from, and only from, your assumption."
It's not an assumption which is my entire point. Alice is clearly between 5 feet to 5 foot 5, it's essentially fact. There's no disputing this.
"We don't even know if she'll stop growing"
She's NINETEEN. NINETEEN. Women stop growing at eighteen at most. You clearly have no idea about human heights and measurements and growth if you're claiming a 19 year old woman is going to become taller. A very few guys will become taller past 18, but to posit a 19 year old woman is going to become taller is ridiculous.
"It's also obvious her stature in AO is vastly different"
Not so I've noticed. She looks the same height in both shorts. Also, her height in Otherlands is irrelevant because we're discussing Alice's and the Carpenter's heights in Madness Returns. Even if Alice is 5-6, 5-7, or 5-8, he still falls into the 9-10 feet range.
"The range is from what you measured, on your screen"
No I didn't. The range is from that first picture I posted, and using basic human biology.
Carpenter's height is an approximate and accurate and factual range, and I don't see anything wrong with it.
"She's NINETEEN. NINETEEN. Women stop growing at eighteen at most. You clearly have no idea about human heights and measurements and growth if you're claiming a 19 year old woman is going to become taller. A very few guys will become taller past 18, but to posit a 19 year old woman is going to become taller is ridiculous."
She's 20. I don't mean that she'll ACTUALLY gain like a foot or a heck load of inches taller, god forbid (anyway there are some exceptions to this because genes, or possibly abnormalities). I'm saying that there's a POSSIBILITY that she will via how she is MODELED. Her definite height can either increase, decrease, or stay as is, which can possibly affect your range (for the first two cases at least). You can't cap her height because even her model can be adjusted, so you don't control her height limit, really, and it's not all just due to biological behavior of women's heights.
"No I didn't. The range is from that first picture I posted"
Where is that image from then? Because from what I see, maybe an inch or two has been added from Alice the 2nd's foot.
"Carpenter's height is an approximate and accurate and factual range, and I don't see anything wrong with it."
From that image, he and Alice are not standing upright at the least, and the line where his head measurement should be seems off, we can't even tell where it should be because his hair is styled like that. T-models would provide a more accurate approximate. His range could change by an inch or so. And then this would mean the max 10 ft != 10'1".
I can compromise with Trivia and ref your image. Because even an inch would matter with numeric ranges.
"I don't understand where you get the "max = 10 ft" from. If Alice is 5 feet, then the top line is 10 feet."
I restored the deleted reply since you addressed it yourself from there.
"And can you find me an image of what Otherland picture you're referring to, where Alice appears tall?"
I believe what I had said is "It's also obvious her stature in AO is vastly different, you can't turn a blind eye to her most recent appearance/s. We don't know how tall she got by then."
Because from what I see in the part here (she's wearing the Around the World dress, which has the freaking highest heels she had so far, anyway the camera view is tilted so I can't say for sure), with her heels, she's seems to be until Verne's eyebrows or until the bottom of Verne's bowler hat? Assuming the heels are 3 inches, the rest of his head can be seen here, and according to this, Verne's 6 ft (I'm not saying it's legit but I'm including it for comparison with the possible inconsistencies I saw)... she's could be 5'5" ~ 5'6" but her heels in her other shoes seem to be 2 inches, so I might be seeing inconsistencies with her height while she's wearing 2 inch heels. Because here (she's wearing 20,000 Leagues Under and I can't tell where her head ends because of her cap), she seems to be until his eyes there or a bit below the eyes? Other shot #1 has their height almost the same but it shouldn't be, but then again it's likely because of the curve of the glass pane, so here's the other shot #2. You can judge it yourself as I'm not entirely sure. Don't forget to pause quickly tho.
Wow, that is a bit too short compared to the site I posted (but your site has legit source soooo)... then this makes Alice a bit short. Does this mean Alice lost a couple of inches instead of gaining them? (rofl) But kidding aside, this is the kind of situation I was saying. I feel that it's best we leave Alice and the others' height range unmentioned. Average height is okay for Alice's description.
"Again, even if Alice IS 5-6 or 5-7, it doesn't mean Carpenter is out of the range I listed."
9-10 is commonly understood as 9ft to 10ft flat not 10ft but don't forget 1-11 inches. Hence why I said 10 != 10'1" (aka 3.33 != 3.37 for yard; 3.048 != 3.078 for meters). These kinds of things are what made math horrible when computing >_> Anyway, you need to add some inch indicator for Carpenter because 10 flat does not cater 10.1 to 10.5, as per the Occam's Razor that you said.
I can't see it much (the vid) tho. I'm kinda at a retreat xD But if it's explicitly part of the Alice-franchise, go add it. I'll add the parameter and fix the position + profession with my bot tomorrow. When the parameter is added you can freely add the characters' respective eye colors.
@that blowfish: Oh my god, that... actually yeah. But oh come on rofl.
I'm doneee. I didn't add the eyes param for the chess pieces that are "dead" (which is actually majority of them) but if they need to have one, feel free to add it. I'll just fix the formatting if needed.
"Sometimes, people edit wikis for the sole purpose of adding voice credits. I see it occur on Silent Hill Wiki. People will randomly add voice actors and disappear."
Hence why it's left blank in the infobox. People can click the edit button, can't they? Usually people go to the most popular characters in a wiki and they can see this character is voiced by this VA, and usually they page hop until they notice this one page that doesn't have a voice actor listed on it. The most popular page that they visited then just becomes a page of reference on how they can add a VA. Or at least they add it somewhere in the page and we or an experienced contributor just fix the placement.
Oh yeah, I don't get this part a bit. It's a legit AMR teaser, so it's a-okay if it gets added, but the confusing part is: "technically an official "Alice" producer now". Did you mean like he wasn't officially part before AO? o_O
Ohh. Well, if you mean to add it as Trivia in Troy Morgan's page (like Troy Morgan's teaser trailer was often mistaken as a real one etc.), sure! But if you're adding the actual video thumbnail as a trivia (like the quotes) and there's no space to accomodate it, best not.
Yeah... I don't know what's going to become of the Alice series now. But I'm happy that it lasted this long. No one expected a sequel to American McGee's Alice, so we're lucky this fandom even received Madness Returns and Otherlands. :)
I can only hope that we can get a "super remastered" or "remake" of American McGee's Alice, or get Otherlands adapted into a video game.
I have a strong emotional connection to the series, it's such a shame EA treats the creative team like shit.
Also, why the hell isn't the first game on Steam? Damn you, EA.
Yep, I know what you mean.. McGee's vision of the original story really struck a lot of people. And to have reached this far is really a big achievement. I know I'll keep the series dear to my heart :3
YAS. Hopefully we would still be around by then o,o
"DAMN YOU, EA."
Very well said. And I imagined you with your arm raised and your fists clenched shouting that. I laughed xD
I don't belong in the PC master race nor the consoles since I'm using a laptop and it has not-so-good specs so I'm just waiting for only StarCraft: Legacy of the Void, which I'm not even going to play yet.
So to keep the long story short, I'm only going to watch playthroughs of some of the games (probs NightCry and a bit of AC: Syndicate) from Let's Players I like to watch. :'( I live a sad life, I know. I haven't been on several bandwagons cause I'm detached right now due to uni >_>